PSLF Guilt, Family Expectations, and Financial Reality. #473 Part 2

We tackle a raw listener question about carrying $520k in med school debt, feeling guilty about pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and navigating first‑gen family expectations. We break down what PSLF really is, why it exists, and how to compare it against traditional and accelerated payoff paths.

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Transcript

ACA Premium Spikes Recap

Listener Question: PSLF And Guilt

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Alright guys, so we just finished talking about the Affordable Care Act premium spikes, how it's gonna affect patients, how it's gonna affect you as doctors, residents, and even those who are locums docs. It affects everybody. Make sure you check out that segment for what's going on. Um, right now we're going to answer a question from one of our audience members on PSLF being a first gen immigrant and um not disappointing their parents. Let's jump into this. So, you know, me, I love listener questions because that's where you get the real real. All right, guys. That's what we're here for, right? Like we in our 40s, um we in our 40s. You know, we've been through a lot, we've seen a lot. The school of hard knocks, you know, and I think that that's our I think that's our our power, our superpower is we've we're not far enough that, you know, we don't know what's going on with the younger generation, but we've been through it where we can give really good advice. Okay. Right? Let's see. I know you guys, the young, y'all don't like to listen, but I'm telling you, we know what's going on. Youngins. So let's jump into this. We got a question literally. This guy's initials or girls' initials is MD, right? It says convenient. How convenient, right? What if you go into what do you call osteopathic school? Hi, I'm MD the D O. Right, M D D O. All right, it says, I'm finishing med school with$520,000 in student loans. God damn. My parents never went to college and they think I'm now, in quotes, set for life.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Because they because you went to college.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

No, he's finishing med school.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

No, I know. He went to because they because he went to college, right? Man, let me finish this.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I feel guilty even considering PSLF, public service loan forgiveness. Am I wrong for wanting forgiveness instead of paying everything back? And then yeah, that's a question. Let me keep going. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

What? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Listen, come on. Yo.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Is this person wearing a collar? Because I'm about to grab it.

What PSLF Really Requires

SPEAKER_00 2:43

We judge. Excuse me. Yeah, we judge. We listen and we don't judge. No, we no. No. Babe. We can and we will. Babe, don't don't play our listener base. They I mean, listen, this is an issue, right? This is this is where cultures. Look at my face. This is where cultures clash. You know, she's not buying it. But this is where cultures clash.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

And I'm calling cap on that whole question.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

And this is where modern reality comes in, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Oh, here's some money. No, no, no, please. What?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Well, I do think, listen, like hold on a second.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Hold on. So if you played the lottery for a dollar and you are you won six billion dollars, you wouldn't take it?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

That's not what he's saying.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

But listen, it's the same thing for me because you paying so much to go to school, because you pay you're you're paying, you're still paying. Right? PSLF isn't a free ride. It is paying so much and then getting the rest taken away. So if you pay a dollar, a dollar for the lottery and you win it, are you not going to take it? That's the only question that you gotta answer. That will give you your answer.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

If the answer is you would not take that money, then don't do the PSLF. I don't know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Well, I I think Renee is on one. Basically, what you're saying, we we both agree, but what we're saying is PSLF is there, my dude, my guy, my girl. My girl. Mainly because you are providing care in the public sector and the government is giving you an incentive to do so, right? So as a result, they are making it financially uh they're making it financially uh tasteful, right? To work in the public sector as opposed to taking a private paying job or you know, doing something that you're not gonna be doing greater good for the people. So as a result, that's out there for you. So uh but listen.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

In other words, take it, fool.

Culture Clash And Parental Expectations

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Here's the issue. You're right, but here's the thing like s he he's expressing or she's expressing guilt probably from their parents, right? He's probably having guilt or saying, like, look, like I what immigrant parents don't want money. But they don't understand though, right? The fact that they're saying that he's rich, right? They should understand that okay, he's got five well, I don't know if they know he has$520,000 in debt, but you know, just because you're a doctor doesn't mean that you're rich.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Hello, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Most immigrants aren't rich though.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Hello. Hello? That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

So I I think what MD, what I would say to you is that PSLF, it's not a loophole, right? I don't want you to look at it as a loophole. Um, it's public policy, right? And just like I said, you do um you you do a public service, and as a result, there's going to be a financial win for you, right? Right. But it's something that you're gonna have to do work. Not only do you have to practice in a public sector for 10 years, but you also gotta make payments to your student loans for 10 years and not miss a payment. So there's a lot of different things that you have to do, a lot of hoops, a lot of hurdles that you gotta get through without making a mistake before you get a significant portion of your student loans forgiven. So, you know, the guilt that you may be feeling, um, that might be misplaced.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

That guilt is gonna go straight away when you have to pay 10 consecutive years, you know, what's that, 120 payments? 120 payments, right? And like me said, you gotta go to work. You still gotta go to work. You're not sitting down and doing nothing. You are still going to work, dealing with patients, dealing with the healthcare system, dealing with all the frustrations, everything. So you're still going to work.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

So the other thing too, like your parents who are immigrants, they're probably thinking about when school was inexpensive. You know what I'm saying? Which a lot of parents, you talk to a lot of doctors who are 10 years, or excuse me, 15, maybe even 20 years older than us. They're saying like their med schools were like less than 10k a year. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

But this person's parents didn't necessarily go to college. So we don't know that they actually are, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Look, I'm shooting them bail right now. I'm shooting them bail. Right. And I I'm trying to understand. We look, we gotta understand where they could, we gotta meet them where they're at, also. Right. So we gotta explain that. Listen, like, you know, this is like because some people think, like, yeah, like, you know, I'm getting away with something. It's like, well, no, you're not getting away with something. This is this is a transaction. This is a transaction, excuse me. This is a transaction that's public policy. Exactly. Right? So you do something, as a result, you get something in return. That's it. There's nothing in the United States that's for free. I'd take right now.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

So, you know what? All right, Dr. Renee was just way too taken aback by this question. So I'm gonna tape on myself a little bit and just say, listen, if your parents own a home, they would take tax deductions on owning the home, correct?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

They would not say to the government, please do not take these tax deductions because we just because we live in our home and enjoy it, right? Think of this kind of like the same thing. There is a contribution that you are making to society. When you own a home, the government sees that as you contributing to society financially in some way. And so they reward you for it. They give you a tax deduction. If you owned your own practice, for example, if you owned your own practice and you got tax deductions because you are a business owner, wouldn't you take those as well? Because you're doing some sort of contribution to society financially, then the government rewards you for that. This is the same thing. This is the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Well, I'm glad you said that. The reason why I'm glad you say that is I do think there's a real thing with having very traditional parents growing up in a modern world. Stuff. And you take on some of those traditional thoughts with you, and that might hold you back. Even though your parents mean well, we talk about that all the time, right? Our parents not knowing about investing, but teaching us to just put money in a bank, but not teaching us about how to invest. So although the information was juvenile in some regards, right? It's good advice, but it's like, okay, this is first grade, second grade level stuff. Right. There needs to be a more like nuanced approach, right? Yeah. So if someone comes to you and says, Well, you need to invest your money in the stock market, you can be like, no, that's gambling to me.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Right, right.

Running The Numbers And Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Right? Isn't that kind of the same thing though, right? Where there's this way where you can make a significant amount of money or a rate of return on your money. It's gonna require some type of risk, but you're going to get a significant amount of return based off of historical returns. Right, right. I kind of, it's not apples to apples, but it's it's kind of similar, right? So that's why I think it's old world thinking. Yes. Now you got me. That's why I wanted to give time to this because you know, it's he probably or she probably needs to hear from us that listen, I get that there's some things that are holding that, excuse me, I hear there's some things that are keeping you in the traditional world, but I'm just letting you know that there's a lot of anxiety staying in that thought process, right? Because if you run the numbers between paying off your student loans,$520,000 according to the standard way that the student loan company wants you to pay. Run the numbers there and find out how much at the end of those 20 years, how much interest you're going to be paying. Oh, yeah. You'll pay way well over a million dollars. You know, staying in the public sector, making 10 years of payments and not missing a payment, and just compare and find out which works best for you. Right. And I think more times than not, you'll find out that the anxiety, the time, um, the possible burnout that it could take, paying off the traditional way may not be worth it, right? Because if you're slowing down just a little bit by paying less, but you're doing it over 10 years, think about that's other monies that could go towards investing. That's time that you can spend with family, that's time that you can put towards kids' retirement funds. Yep. Um, you know, so I just I get where you're coming from. I think I I when I first saw this, I was like, wait, what? Man, what are you worried about? But then I I thought about it from myself also. We were there. We were there.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

I wasn't there.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

You're thinking about PSLF.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

That's a but if you were if we were there talking about investing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

I might have, yeah, I might have been a little yeah, squeamish at one point in time.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

So, hey, dude, or girl, listen. Dude, girl. PSLF is not cheating the system. It is the system. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

It is the system.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

That's a snap right there. It's not cheating the system.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Let's go back to my previous episode. Like, yo, this is hitch. I'm hitch. Just keep it right here, yo. PSLF is the system, right? It's not cheating it, right? Stay right here. We're not, we're not going for anything, just pizza. You know what I'm saying? We're not trying to do no like what you'd like. What do you like in your pizza? Like mangoes and olives and what? Mangoes.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Mmm. So good and tasty.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Cheese pizza, yo. That's it, yo. Stay right there, yo. Don't do nothing too crazy. PSLF, yo. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. So I kept the note right here. It says, I think PSLF, I think taking yourself away from that traditional thought process. That protects your future household. And it kind of gets you away from disappointing the house that you came from. Because I've been keeping notes. Before I talk, I'm like, yo, I'm gonna get them. I'm gonna get them. Get it? Protecting your future household. Protecting your future household, not disappointing the one you came from.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Well, I I think so. I I wanna be clear also.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

What do you want to be clear on?

Traditional vs PSLF vs Fast Payoff

SPEAKER_02 13:20

I want to be clear on that that. Um while I understand the question specifically around the guilt of PSLF, it doesn't necessarily mean that PSLF is for you know this person, right? You like you said, you mentioned you have to run the numbers. You have to consider your your your own social situation, right? You've got to consider, well, do I want to pay off my loans after 10 years of working, or do I want to pay them off in five years and then be free to do whatever I want without having to have the burden of this loan? But that's a different situation. To me, that's a different situation. That is a different situation.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Those are three situations.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

I know that, but that's the point that I'm making is that I understand the question.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Don't be touching stuff like you like.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Anyway, I'm the host.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I got you. I'm gonna hold you right there.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Touch me. I understand the question, but what I am saying is I don't want to. Speaking to the mic, please. I don't want us to convey this notion that if you don't do PSLF, that you must be out of your mind, right? Because PSLF is not for everyone, right? And we've talked about this on the podcast as to whether or not, you know, if PSLF were around when we were paying off our loans, would we have done it over the 10-year span, you know, to be able to get everything paid off? My answer was actually no. But it was not, it was not for guilt. It was not for guilt. It was because I felt that even if PSLF had been available to me, I just didn't want the burden of thinking about I got, you know,$300 and some odd thousand dollars worth of student loan debt. I wanted it off my brain.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, but I I I agree with everything you say. Of course you do. I do think that those are three separ these are three separate situations. There's the scenario of you're paying your student loans off the traditional way, which could take 20 years. And then there's a scenario of doing PSLF. I think those two you have to compare. Then the third scenario is paying off your student loans accelerated. That's a separate conversation, right? Because I think once you decide to pay off your student loans early, then what you're doing is you're making the decision that you don't want to deal with these student loans any much longer, right? And you realize that this is a mathematical equation. I want to get it all taken care of, I don't want to deal with this anymore. So you are paying it off as quickly as possible. You're saving as much interest as possible.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

It may not be a mathematical equation, though. It may just be like a psychological equation. Like I don't, I want to subtract this thought process, this thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

All of that goes, but if you decide to pay off your student loans according to the traditional way and you compare it to PSLF, that's an actual, that's a good comparison, right? If I follow the rules, these rules versus I follow these rules, how is it gonna work for me? Or I could just decide to do it on my own. Make my own rules. Make my own rules, and I'd be out of debt way faster and pay off less interest. So I agree. I agree with you. I think you agree with me. I think we kind of beat this to the horse. Um, MD, thank you very much for the horse. Beat this down, beat this horse down. I'm not good with my colloquialisms, guys. I'm not. I'm horrible.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Somebody send me a list of colloquialisms that he probably should know how to say appropriately.

Closing And How To Submit Questions

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Right. But listen, guys, I I want to say I heard somebody walking upstairs, yo. I think that's what threw me off. Do you hear somebody walking upstairs? Yeah, but that's we always hear upstairs. Well, anyway, guys, um, I really appreciate you all writing in. If you want us to answer your questions, go to the show notes. Um, you can also, you'll in the show notes, you'll find out that you can text us, you can email us, you can even send us fan mail and any type of question that you have, whether it's related to the pain points that you have, which could be student loans, which could be investing, which could be relationships while in residency, whatever it may be, bad, you know, coworkers, you hate your partners, we've done what we've dealt with all of those different things. All right. So go ahead and click on the show notes if you want to find out how to uh how to um send us a message and we will answer it on a future episode. Dr. Renee, is there anything that you want to say before we sign off?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah, and also if you want to send a list of colloquialisms to me, you can also use all of those methods of communication that he just mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

I love you guys. This is what I gotta deal with. Pray for us. Don't laugh at us. See you guys on the next episode, y'all. Peace.