Docs Outside The Box
Hosts Dr. Nii (Ghanaian) and Dr. Renee (Haitian) are first-generation physicians who paid off $662,000 in student loans in 3 years - while figuring out contracts, career moves, and money management that their colleagues learned at home.
Every episode covers what first-gen docs need to know:
- Contract negotiation and career decisions
- Paying off debt without family financial guidance
- Building wealth from scratch
- The questions you don't know to ask (but your colleagues already knew)
Real strategies from doctors who had to figure it out on their own.
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Docs Outside The Box
REPLAY: What is a 1099? Non-traditional pre-med advice #357
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Drs. Nii and Renée do a semi-ok job at explaining the difference between 1099 independent contracting and W2 employment. Dr. Renée runs down the ways in which we give up control of our careers to others. Then the docs meet long-standing listener, Jamar Cromwell, to give him advice as a non-traditional pre-med.
Things you'll learn in this episode:
- The difference between 1099 and W2
- How to take control over your career so that you can control your life
- How students and doctors can focus on medicine while still staying true to their identities
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Money Versus Life: The Real Question
SPEAKER_02Is the making of money that important that you should ignore everything else in your life so that you can work to make the money?
SPEAKER_06What does Dr. Renee say? No, obviously. But that's a hard pill to swallow if you are a pre-med student or if you're a medical student and you're just trying to get through. I've always wanted to be a doc. I am here to dedicate my hours to a patient, uplift my community. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02But there is a difference between having a career and having money. Renee's cooking.
SPEAKER_06Your roma is a bit special.
SPEAKER_02Cooking in the kitchen.
Sponsor Messages: Insurance And Locums
SPEAKER_06This episode is brought to you by Step for Life Insurance. Listen, Docs, one of the first steps we took to pay off our student loan debt was realizing we paid way too much for our disability insurance. That all changed when we found Step for Life Insurance. They helped us with a customized insurance policy that met our needs and most of all, budget. To learn more, check out StepforlifeInsurance.com. Did you know Locum's docs make on average 33% more than employee docs? Got your attention now? So if you're considering locum tenants, either full-time or on the side, you probably have a question or two, or maybe even 20. Locumstory.com is packed with unbiased information and tools to see what the trends are in your specialty and even make a decision if locums is right for you. My advice make locumstory.com the go-to place to learn more about locum tenants. That's locumstory.com. What's up, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Docs Outside the Box. This is episode 357. I'm your host, Dr. Ni. I am joined by Doctor.
SPEAKER_02Renee.
SPEAKER_06You've actually done that before. No, I haven't. I'm just gonna call it out. Now you've done that before.
SPEAKER_02You're gonna knee and sing a melody. Dr. Renee. Did you miss my Alfred?
Show Intro And Format Shift
SPEAKER_06She stole that from Martin. Did you miss my excuse me? Okay, respect the host. That is the episode where Martin meets um what's his name? Varnell Hill. The Vell Hill show. That's a great episode. One of the best episodes.
SPEAKER_02You interrupted my intro. This is why you didn't know what I was doing.
Tax Shock And Financial Lessons
SPEAKER_06That's what it is. That's what it was. All right. Well, folks, I want to thank you all for listening on the podcast. People who are watching on YouTube, welcome. Was good, where y'all been. We really appreciate you all. And listen, wherever you're listening to this, we always appreciate you. And what you'll see, this episode is really for you. This episode is feedback episode where you know we're kind of talking about some of the comments that we get from Instagram or from text to follow and so forth. Um so we're gonna let this roll. The second half of this episode will be an actual interview that we have with one of our faithful listeners. Yeah. Um he kind of hits us from so many different perspectives. Um we'll kind of save that for segment two. We won't get into that. Um, but let's jump right into this um real quick. I um from the previous episode, I think from 355. If you guys listen, I did end up making that$40,000 uh payment to the IRS, which was pretty painful. Are you all right? We are, we sick. Yeah, we it was painful for us, all right, to make that payment. Um, guys, once again, if you if you didn't catch that episode on 355, I talked about how for some reason we did not keep up with our estimated tax payments for the year. So right before April 18th, we had to make another large lump,$41,000 estimated payment. I prefer to just do it in estimated installments, you know, every quarter so that there's not this huge, large bill. But it is what it is. It's done, it's taken care of. We'll go from there. But yeah. Yeah, you look hurt. Yeah, I'm hurt. Pockets hurt.
SPEAKER_03Somebody stabbed you in your pockets.
SPEAKER_06In your pockets too. I don't understand what is this like your money is my money, my money is your money. You know what I'm saying? I thought you were a prenup. You ain't signed no prenup.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
Why We Pivoted The Show
Designing A Career With Locums
SPEAKER_06Y'all, listen. So, if y'all don't know, the reason why me and Renee stopped doing as many interviews as uh we did last year is mainly because like we live this non-traditional life. And there's so many different aspects of our life that I think a lot of people can learn from. From us paying off debt to us doing IVF and failing, um, to us leaving our jobs and deciding to go into locums, which is a form of independent contracting. Right. Um, we decided to do all of these different things because there's just a certain life, a certain lifestyle that we wanted or that we want. So, you know, we've been podcasting since 2016, docs outside the box. We've been at the top of the charts for business, but in terms of Doctor Podcasts, you know, we've been up there and we felt like it was time to pivot last year. And we went ahead and teamed up with uh locumstory.com and created a video series, our first ever video series, which is you know, basically us documenting Renee getting back into doing locums and what it's like to talk with different locums companies using locumstory.com. Right. We documented what it's like to understand like the lingo of locums, understand what it's like to interview, understand all the different assignments that they may have. They may have assignments, you know, in all 48 contiguous states. They may have some assignments in other, you know, parts of the United States, you know, and Hawaii and Alaska and so forth, and maybe abroad, who knows? Um, but that is what we wanted to do because we wanted to showcase what we do. And I think sometimes, you know, at least for me in the beginning, I was getting so caught up in the energy of other people, other guests, which I don't want to diss. We appreciate every guest that's been on the show. This is great. But what we find out is that everybody tunes in. They tune in for to listen to either my experience or your experience or our experience. So we really wanted to focus in on that for the show. And then now we have Docs for Hire, which is this video series where we chronicle this.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06Whether you are a medical student, a resident, if you're a nurse, whatever you are in the healthcare field, this is an opportunity for you to listen to what it's like to take control of your career, ask really poignant questions, and kind of decide what you want to do with your career. I've been talking on my soap, you know, box for a minute. I'm gonna let you talk because I guess I'm, you know, sometimes that's yeah, you like you, you about to preach. Yo, man.
SPEAKER_03Can I get a amen?
SPEAKER_06I'm feeling it.
SPEAKER_03Alfred play the organ. Alfred play the organ.
SPEAKER_06Now, should he do praise music or like praise dance music?
SPEAKER_03Uh, no, no, no.
Control Your Career, Control Your Life
SPEAKER_02Not yet, not yet. It's gotta be the dan, like the slow organ. Anyway, no, I totally agree. I think, you know, one of the things I agree. Anyway, one of the things that um I've been saying lately, because I've getting I've been getting a lot of questions about independent contracting. Both of us, we've been getting a lot of questions about independent contracting. And regardless of whether or not you're in the you know, you're independently contracted, the point of work, right? And we talked about this with Ali Abdal, the point of work is to make an income, right? Is is to make money. And the problem with work is that sometimes work actually interferes with all of the other things that you want to do. And so the question is, you know, is the making of money the most important thing that a person should be focused on such that it actually interrupts all of the other things, you know, in this person's life, you know, time with their family, time with their friends, recreational time, mental health. Like, is the making of money that important that you should ignore everything else in your life so that you can work to make the money?
SPEAKER_06What does Dr. Manai say?
SPEAKER_02Well, I say no, obviously, right? Like the making of money is not so important that you should have to interrupt everything in your life. So then what does that mean then?
SPEAKER_06That means And But that's a hard pill to swallow. Before you go on to the next point, let's just be honest. That's a hard pill for to swallow for a lot of people who are listening to the show. Particularly if you are a pre-med student or if you're a medical student and you're just trying to get through. Right. And you're realizing, yo, I sacrificed the majority of my 20s to get to this point. What are you talking about? Like, I've always wanted to be a doc. Like the last thing I thought about is how I'm gonna get paid. I am here to dedicate my hours to a patient to uplift my community, um, or you know, for a career achievement that I've always wanted. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02Right. But there is a difference between having a career and having money.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_02Right? Career does not equal money.
SPEAKER_06Renee's cooking. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Cooking in the kitchen. Um, so yeah, there's a difference, I think, between having a career and having money, right? Just because you are a doctor, right, you you meaning you have a career as a doctor doesn't mean that you need to sacrifice everything in order to make money, right? That those two are not necessarily one and the same. So the question is, okay, well, what do you do with that? Well, first you have to understand the concept of control your career, control your life. If you control your career, then you become in control of your life. If you give your career to the hands of other people to control, then you don't control your life.
SPEAKER_06So, how did how do you give your career to someone else to control?
Stop Calling Every Job An Opportunity
SPEAKER_02So you give your career to other people to control in quite a number of ways, actually. So when I talked with Mandy uh Santos Woodruff about this, you know, we talked about the I mean we got a point now, it's first name basis now, it's Mandy. Right, but they didn't know. If I just say Mandy, then they don't know.
SPEAKER_06They're faithful listeners, they should know.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, when I talked with Mandy, okay, Mandy Woodruff, it's actually Mandy Woodruff Santos. So when I talked with her, right, she she is, you know, a negotiations career coach. Um so when I talked with her, I talked about the you know, getting into this trend of you get in, you you know, to get to medical school, you basically have to ask somebody to give you opportunity. Then when you get to residency, you hoping that somebody's gonna give you an opportunity. Someone's always giving you something. So if you don't break out of that cycle by the time you end residency, then you continue to wait for people to give you things, right? If somebody's always giving you something, then what are you actually going after? Right? Every time I talk with somebody about a job opening, what do they actually call the job opening? They say, Oh, there's this opportunity. That's what they say to me. And I'm like, how do you know that this is an opportunity? This is just a job opening. It only becomes an opportunity when you say it is. But if you all if you automatically see it as an opportunity, then what you're saying is that it is advantageous to you to take this job, even if you haven't done all of your research to figure out whether or not it actually is advantageous. So in that way, you are literally giving away your career, you're giving up control of your career because everything that someone presents to you, you see as an opportunity.
SPEAKER_06Right.
Negotiation As A Non‑Negotiable
SPEAKER_02Right? So that's how you give your career away. Another way that people give their careers away is that they don't negotiate. If you don't negotiate, then what you're doing is essentially taking a deal that is lopsided towards the employer, right? Or the hiring party. So you have to learn how to negotiate. Otherwise, you're literally giving up all the leverage that you have because, right, when you don't negotiate, it's probably because you see it as someone giving you an opportunity and not you determining whether or not this is an opportunity. That's probably why you're not negotiating.
SPEAKER_06Okay, so I get that point. Now, in terms of this show, Docs for Hire, which is on YouTube right now. Check it out. The links are in the show notes, guys. And if you're watching on YouTube, it's in the show description below. Tell me how you use that mentality. Give us a little snippet of how you use that mentality and how they can see this on the show.
Crafting Roles To Fit Your Work
SPEAKER_02So, first things first is I kind of talk about what it is that I'm looking for, right? So, you know, there's um and you know, some some of this is edited. So I I don't remember everything that's in there, but there is a point at which um we talk about what kinds of assignments I want. And I talk about the fact that I don't like to do clinic, right? And this is this is uh this is a long-standing trend for me at this point because I haven't done clinic in maybe about six years. So all of the assignments that I've taken in the last six to seven years, I've blanketly said, I don't do clinic. So whenever I get, you know, an email or a text message from a recruiter, actually, I got one yesterday and it talks about doing clinic. And I'm like, I don't do clinic. That's not an opportunity for me, right? So it's being very clear about what you want and not feeling like you have to do something. You had your 20s, your 30s, or however old you were when you gave up, you know, all the time with your family, your friends, and things like that to create the career that you wanted to be to go to medical school and then go to residency. For me, it's like, well, if you took all that time to do that, why wouldn't you craft your career to the best parts of it? And for me, the best parts of my career is being an OB hospitalist. That's what I like about my career. And I'm not going to do anything in my career that I don't want to do.
SPEAKER_06So I think what you're trying to say. So you're saying what you're saying, and I get it. I think what the audience should be taking from this is there's no such thing as a one size fits all career.
SPEAKER_02Correct.
Video Series: Docs For Hire
SPEAKER_06And it is okay to look at certain job openings as just openings, and you can go and interview there and say, hey, listen, I see what the job posting is, but let me be very honest with you, that's not gonna work for me because I may need A, I may need um part-time, or I may need to be um, I don't want to do clinic.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06Can you guys accommodate that?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06And you basically come with them, you come to them with a set of what your negotiables are. They will come back and say, hey, kick rocks. Or they may say, Let's play ball. Right. And go from there.
SPEAKER_02Or you may say kick rocks.
SPEAKER_06Right. Right. So the most important thing that I think that you want people to get from this is that you've been very you've learned to be very clear about what you want from working and what you don't want. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Clear and intentional.
SPEAKER_06Clear and intentional. So for me, like the same thing. I think that in my train of work, um, the show's really not the show's about us. The show's also focuses on you looking for a job. But if they were to focus on me looking for a job, as a trauma critical care surgeon, I do trauma, trauma surgery, which is a little bit different than uh general surgery, and then which is also a little bit different than critical care, right? So I take care of people in intensive care unit, which it's its own separate job. I take care of people and and do gallbladders and do elective surgery, which it's its own separate job. And then obviously being a trauma surgeon can be its own separate job. But I think even in that realm, people can be very can pick and choose and say, hey, look, like I just want to do trauma and I see you, and that's it. Or you know, it it you should be able to determine what you want and be able to effectively you know, kind of negotiate that. Right. And whether they come to play ball or they say no and you decide to be like peace. This is what this show is to let you guys like get to see is that you know, like we we what we're doing is not out of the ordinary. It may be non-traditional, you may not have um been exposed to this because you know it's very uh rare for an academic residency program to be teaching their residents how to do something like this.
SPEAKER_07Correct.
Community Questions On 1099s
SPEAKER_06Right? So that's the reason why we did this is to kind of branch off and show y'all, like, you know, we don't just speak it, we actually do it. Yeah, you know. So once again, this video series um is something that we're really proud of. We worked together with locumstory.com. They are the sponsor. Um, but we had full control over this. Yeah. You know, we worked in collaboration with them, and it's on our YouTube channel.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it is, it is on the Docs Outside the Box podcast YouTube channel. Um, if you just, you know, if you go there, you'll find the full video. Um, or or if you want a little more.
SPEAKER_06You can check HBO Max. Check it on the HBO Max guy. It's not on HBO Max.
SPEAKER_02Don't let people come to us asking for a refund and talking about I ain't seen on HBO Max.
SPEAKER_06All right. HBO, yeah, y'all should sponsor the show. Because if we drive your subscription numbers up, oh man. Affiliate links. Hey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but if you want a little bit more drama, if you will, um we'll also have a playlist. So if you just want to watch it kind of, you know, segment by segment with kind of recaps after, you know, before every segment, um, you can watch it that way as well. But I think it'll be fun. It's our first, you know, it's our first video series, so we're excited to hear what you guys have to say. Good, bad, or otherwise, trust me, um, y'all can't hurt my feelings. Um, I love, love, love feedback because it helps us to understand what the audience really wants. Um, and, you know, if that's what we want to do, then yeah, we'll take that feedback and make it happen.
SPEAKER_06So we'll leave it at that, guys. So um on Instagram, we're on Instagram as Docs Outside the Box. Are we on Docs Outside the Box podcast or Docs Outside the Box? No, just Docs Outside the Box. So on Instagram, we are on as Docs Outside the Box. If you check out some of our newest uh pictures or our newest posts that we're putting up there, we actually put questions that we get from y'all. So a lot of time we get questions from other doctors, from other residents, um, mainly asking us just offhand questions about business, maybe asking us some clinical questions. Career clinical type questions that are related to like business and so forth. And I just after a while I'm like, why don't people anyway? We're gonna start answering these questions on Instagram.
SPEAKER_02So we want to give you a chance to answer them first, which is why we posted them on IG.
SPEAKER_06Right. So this is all collective learning.
SPEAKER_02They're also gonna be posted on LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_06You put them on LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the first one I didn't, but then the second one um post uh posted on LinkedIn um and I believe Facebook as well.
Magic Mirror: Shoutouts And Industry News
SPEAKER_06So the first post I'm gonna talk about right now, that's so there's a doctor who we've been talking to who is considering leaving, working as an employee doctor and transitioning to telehealth, telemedicine. You know, that's where you meet with people, your patients virtually. And what she's trying to figure out with this person or this entity that she's gonna be working with is should she work as an employee doctor, right? Or should she work as an independent contractor, as a vendor, whatever you want to call it? Basically, she will work with this entity and they will pay her. And the question is, is are they gonna pay her as an employee of the of their company or just as a vendor? Or as a as a contractor? And if that's the case, then that's something that we oftentimes call a 1099, a person who works as a 1099. Someone wrote on the Instagram, one of the comments was, What is a 10 1099? I answer that 1099 basically is a form that a company or someone that you pay, it's a form that you fill out to the IRS. So for example, let's say Renee was working, me and Renee were working uh that's not a good example.
SPEAKER_07What?
SPEAKER_06So basically it's it's a form that you submit to the IRS, and what it is is it's it it directly tells the IRS who you paid, and it's for people that or it's for things that you pay over$600. Oh my god. Let me start all over again.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm like, wait, where are you going with Disney? So let's just give an example. How about this? It's a form it's a form used to report. No, no, no, no. Don't don't don't do definitions. I hate definitions.
SPEAKER_06Form used to report income to the IRS that is made by people who are not employed. Boom. You really gonna read that definition. I actually made that definition up.
SPEAKER_02Okay, don't nobody nobody cares about definitions. They want to know how does this apply to them. So for example, I can't believe I messed that up. You did, you you really crunched it.
SPEAKER_06I talk about this all the time.
SPEAKER_02You crunched it. It's late though.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's late.
SPEAKER_06And I'm kinda pissed and I'm kinda pissed about the uh the estimated tax payment.
SPEAKER_02The 40,000.
SPEAKER_06But let's keep it moving. Come on, let's keep it moving.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so basically, for example, right? There's the difference between being employed and and being an independent contractor. If you're employed, then you fill out a W2.
SPEAKER_06A W4.
SPEAKER_02No, W2.
SPEAKER_06No, you fill out a W4.
SPEAKER_02No, the person, the person who's working fills out a W2.
SPEAKER_06Wait, you talk you talking about the person who's working for a company?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06No, the person who's working for a company before you start working on the company.
SPEAKER_02Oh, sorry, yes, you're right. They fill out a W2. You're right, you're right.
SPEAKER_06We all we all at the end of the year when you finish working from in December or W2. You get a W2.
Break: LocumStory Resource
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sorry. So when you're working, yes, you're right. When you're working, you fill out a W four, right? When you're working as an employee.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
Listener Spotlight: Meet Jamar
SPEAKER_02Okay. When you are working as an independent contractor, you work you fill out a W9. Right? Correct. Okay. And the difference is that as when you when you fill out a W four, you are working for that person. Right? W four, four. You're working for that person. If you fill out a W9, you are working with that person. Yes?
SPEAKER_06I mean, I guess Yeah, you're working with.
SPEAKER_02You're not working for that person. That person is not your boss.
SPEAKER_06I got a better example, but keep going though.
SPEAKER_02Right? That person is not your boss. So now you, as the person who is working either for or with, you get paid. Now when you fill out a W9 and you are an independent contractor working with that person, you get paid without any taxes coming out.
SPEAKER_06Correct.
SPEAKER_02Right? At the end of the year, when the tax season is coming along, that person with whom you work is going to give you a 1099, basically stating how much they paid you over time. If that, if they only fill out that form if they've paid you over$600 in that year.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's fine. I think that's a good example. So the way how I look at it is this look, when we made this Docs for Hire series, we hired a Doctors for Hire.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_06We hired a videography, we hired a videographers, right? We it cost more than$600, but we paid them whatever the cost was. They filled out a W9, and at the end of the year, we sent them a 1099. This form gets sent to them saying that, hey, we paid you this amount for the year, and then that form also gets sent to the IRS. So the IRS knows everything, right? So when that videography crew does their taxes, they have to account for the money that Where that money come from?
SPEAKER_01Where that money come from?
SPEAKER_06They have to account for the money that we gave them and kind of figure out where your money goes.
SPEAKER_01Where your money go to.
SPEAKER_06But that's how that works, right? So the question was, what was the 1099? Um I explained it right, but I said that that is for anything for people who get paid more than$400. It's actually if you get paid$600 or more.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, came back and fixed it.
Keeping Your Why Through Setbacks
SPEAKER_06Right. So basically, if you do any type of freelance work, if you do any type of contract work, if you get any dividend payments, right, or if you get any interest payments. So for the past 10 years, everybody who has crappy interest rates for your bank account, you probably weren't getting 1099s, but now the interest rates are going up and you have all these high-yield savings accounts and you're getting 4%, maybe even 5%, you're gonna start seeing some 1099 MISCs coming in or 1099 INTs coming in saying that you've received some type of payment in a form of interest. So those are the basic three forms of which someone would get a 1099. But when we say that that person is a 1099, that means that they're getting paid at it, they're getting paid um for doing freelance work, contracted work, and at the end of the year they get a 1099. Yeah. That's what I mean by that. But these are the type of questions that we're gonna start answering on uh when we're not so tired. When we're not so tired. Good point. Good point. Let's move to the magic mirror segment. So we debuted that uh several episodes again ago. And um actually that is our segment where we're giving shout outs to different doctors who are doing some really cool things. Yeah, yeah. Um the last one we shouted out Dr. Milhouse, who is a urologist. She just has a TV show on TLC. And we also gave a shout-out to Dr. Milhouse. Or sorry, to Dr. Burgess, Derek Burgess, who just crossed over the hundred-episode threshold for his podcast. After taking your course. After taking my course. Um, which if you guys go to the show description or if you go to the show notes on the podcast standpoint, you can see we got a course, an evergreen course, where you can learn how to take 10 quick and easy steps to learn how to podcast. Um but on Textofo, right? Remember, you can text us and let us know what's going on. You can text us at 833-230-2860. Dr. Love Anani, who is an ER physician, wrote in after seeing that segment and just said that he was listening and he appreciated that segment and um wanted to give us props on that. Also, what he said is in that same episode, towards the end, the last segment, we were talking about Envision Healthcare or Envision Staffing, which is one of the staffing companies out there. But about two months ago, they missed some um, they missed uh what's the word I want to use? They wanted they missed a distribu is it uh not a distribution. I think it was like a loan payment they missed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I forget exactly what you said, but yeah, they they were supposed to make some sort of payment and they didn't make it.
SPEAKER_06And private, whoever is backing them from private equity was like, yo, um that has nothing to do with us. That's not like a you problem, not a me problem. Envision was like, see, what happened was right, like my mom's uh car payment came due, and then you know, the check didn't come in, and the private equity firm was like, listen, that ain't got nothing to do with us. He wants our money.
SPEAKER_00It was like smokey, yo. Smokey and worm. Playing with my money is like playing with my emotions. Wow.
Nontraditional Paths And Timing
SPEAKER_06We want worm. Money. Why is he walking away? It's the principality of the thing, Envision. So it looks like Envision may be in trouble. But the other reason why Dr. Love also contacted us is because he's an ER doc. And I asked him, I was like, so how do you work with your hospitals? So Dr. Love is actually a part of an ER group that contracts their doctors out to a hospital. So the hospital doesn't deal with individual ER docs, they deal with an entity, a company, and this company employs or maybe contracts these doctors, and then they have that type of relationship with the hospital. So he just wanted to clarify that. So that's just something that um I think is really interesting. Yeah. Um, so once again, if you guys want to participate in this show, one of the best ways is by sending us a message to Textable. Yeah. 833-230-2860. Um, but listen, we got to take a break so that we can come back and let y'all hear this conversation that we had with Doc, excuse me, with Jamar, one of our faithful listeners of the show. Let's go ahead and take a break. We'll be right back. Backdrop. 2012, finishing my fellowship in Miami, and no decision bigger than where and how I was going to start working on my own. And there it was, the fork in the road. Being employed versus something I had never heard of before, locum tenants. So I decided to go the locums route, and I had a ton of questions then. I stumbled a bit, but eventually I was able to stand on my own, and I have been working locums over the past 10 years. And what about you? If you're considering locums, you probably have hella questions just like I did like who covers my malpractice? Do I really have Control over how often I work and what are the tactical features. Now, lucky for you, LocumStory.com has the answers you need. It's packed with unbiased information and advice from Doctor, just like you. And there's nothing to sell here. It's just a simple resource for information, like finding out what's the average pay rate for your specialty. There's even a quiz to see if locums is right for you. So listen, take my advice. Locumstory.com is the perfect place to start if you want to learn more about locums. That's locumstory.com. Okay, we are back. Um this is something I'm really excited about. So for the past year, actually, we've been communicating with a very faithful listener. His name is Jamar, Jamar Cromwell, and um we decided to talk with him, right? So he's been texting us on TexFo, talking from anything from the fact that he tried Factor Meals, which is what I use to eat. It's like a meal delivery service or meal prep service that I use when I'm on locums. It's great. Um he's texted us on you know tips with me switching from my laptop on a PC to being on a Mac, which low-keyed this has been a great investment. Oh, the MacBook blows anything on the PC. It blows it out. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, so now, okay, so this is not a PC house anymore. Um we don't have any PCs in this house, so yeah, we actually don't.
SPEAKER_06Um, but yeah, so he he was a part of that. He was a part of that, and he just legit like is always writing it in the.
SPEAKER_03Jamar, you know, made Dr. Nee lose his religion up in here, okay? His PC religion.
SPEAKER_06I love this apple. It's great. I'm never going back to a PC. You know, but hey, it is what it is. Oh my goodness. It is what it is. Um, but what you guys are going to hear is an excellent conversation that we wanted you all to hear. Real quick, Jamar is a non-traditional pre-med student. He is in Pennsylvania, actually on the western side of Pennsylvania. He works in the tech space and he's trying to be a doctor. You know, he's a big fan of the show. It communicates with us, as I already told you. Um, is there anything you want to jump into or you want to drop before we let y'all listen to this great episode?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, I think it was just a really good conversation. For me, I was just excited to hear from one of the listeners. And, you know, I really hope that anybody who's listening in really takes to heart that we really want to talk with you all. We really, really appreciate your your um, you know, the fact that you listen to the show and that you write in. And, you know, if you write in a question, we are more than happy to answer it or even have you on the show to answer it. So all right.
SPEAKER_06So, Alfred, please patch in this interview and um we'll talk about it afterwards. So, Jamar, one of our faithful listeners, was good. I'm glad we finally connect, man. How are you?
SPEAKER_05I'm doing well. How are you?
SPEAKER_06Oh man, we good, man.
SPEAKER_02Good to finally put a face with the name.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I've been a while, I've been around for a while, so listening for for I don't know how many years. You know, it's good to see you guys.
SPEAKER_06Let's learn more about you. Where are you from, man?
Focus, Side Hustles, And Med School
SPEAKER_05So I'm from Pittsburgh. I'm from uh from you know the west of uh west side of uh Pennsylvania. So we're like nestled into the mountains.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so we we used to work in Central PA. We will hang out in Pittsburgh every now and then. Um, but um I didn't know Pittsburgh was like that really. Um Pittsburgh really actually has a happening scene.
SPEAKER_05Um Yeah, it's it's um there's a lot going on now. There's a ton of construction right now, which is driving everyone crazy, especially around my neighborhood. Um, but it's it's really like blowing up um in some good ways. And there's a lot of tech companies coming here. There's a lot of people from like Cali moving here, New York are moving here, so they're buying a lot of properties. It's it's getting interesting.
SPEAKER_06Okay. All right. So where are you at right now? Like what's what's the deal with you? I know you listen a lot. I know you're from Pittsburgh. You're obviously a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, I'm assuming. Um what do you do? Like, what was what what do you do for a living? How do you what's your normal nine to five like?
SPEAKER_05Uh so right now, um, like I'm I'm at work right now. So I'm I'm a systems engineer. Uh I have a background in uh computer information systems, I have a master's degree in that. And I graduated from Robert Morris University, which is like right out on the highway outside of Pittsburgh, outside of Pittsburgh by the airport. Um I also play um college football. I played sports young musician, saxophone.
SPEAKER_06Um you can do it all.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I do it. It's uh it's a gift and a curse, I guess, because you can when you can do it all, you don't know what to do. Right, right.
SPEAKER_06That's trauma surgery in a nutshell. Jack, Jack of all trades, master of none. You heard that, everybody?
SPEAKER_03Nee said he ain't the master.
SPEAKER_06No, I'm not the master. And Q is gonna be the dude. And Q, the last dragon, right there, man.
SPEAKER_07All right, Leeroy. Who's the one and only mess?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right. So, yeah, so I did I do photography. Photography is kind of new for me, um, and I've been taking on a lot of side gigs for that and have a website and all that stuff, but so I'm trying to make some money on the side for that and pay for like classes and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you're my full no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Not my full time is just systems engineering and uh and then that's on the side. I usually do the photography on the weekends.
SPEAKER_06They know you record on company time.
SPEAKER_03He's like, it's my lunch break.
SPEAKER_06We ain't gonna tell them they don't listen to the show, don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_03Yo, say it's your lunch break, Trevor.
SPEAKER_06Don't worry about it. They're not watching it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. We're not watching it. But yeah, that's me.
Building A Pre‑Med Identity
SPEAKER_02So you write in a lot. Um, the last time you texted us, um, you had a couple of questions. What's what's kind of like the most pressing question that you have for us?
SPEAKER_05Um, so I guess the most promising is since I'm a pre-med right now. Um, and I want to, I've been I started this journey in like 2017 after my dad had a kidney transplant. He's a diabetic, he has all these things going on with a veteran. And so the VA, you know, basically poked him up with a kidney. Like throughout that time, he he went from like 220, 230 pounds to like 160 pounds waiting for kidney going through dialysis. And it was just like seeing that this surgeon, I mean, he walked in and it was just kind of like, this is what we're gonna do, this is what's gonna happen. Um, there was this air of confidence and uh a sense of um like rest and you know, you can rest assured you'll be taken care of. Um and so we saw my dad going through that. And so I started pre-med in um 2017, just going this and and since like COVID started, a lot of things have like fell off. Like I had, you know, I had a schedule, I had a plan. It was like do shadowing, get my classes done, do some clinical stuff, et cetera, et cetera. But I you know, COVID came and volunteering and all that stuff fell up fell away. So I'm just at the point where I'm trying to get these things together, but I'm also trying to keep up that motivation, that determination to to continue, continue and keep my why um, you know, in front of me and go for that. And so I was just I mean, mostly I want to know have you guys either of you ever experienced that moment where you felt your why was slipping away and how did you get back on track?
SPEAKER_06That's a really good question. That's a deep question. Whoa, that's the Jamar question, right? Man, Alfred Q the thinking. I told you, I told you me and Alfred, it's our relationship. You just focus on Jamar. Me and Alfred, we got it something. You just answer Jamar's question. You see, you see how she does, Jamar? She's gonna answer your question. I'll go from there.
How He Found The Show
Wrap Up And Ways To Engage
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, I hear this question a lot actually from the pre-meds that I work with. You know, um, it's a really it's it's a really deep question, like we mentioned. Um, I got this question actually from somebody uh while I was at the Student National Medical Association. A pre-med came up to me and asked me, kind of like, you know, how do you stay motivated because there's so many things going on? And it's really, I'll tell you this, it's really hard. It's very individualized, right? You have to keep going back to your original thought of why you wanted to do this, and think about whether or not that reason is still relevant to you, right? So you mentioned your dad, you know, going through getting a kidney transplant, your interaction with the surgeon, you know, just kind of this air of confidence everything was gonna be okay. Um, you have to keep going back to that moment because it seems like that moment was very poignant in your life, right? That that moment um kind of culminated or at least summarized all of the things that you were really feeling in terms of being motivated to go into medicine. And so you just have to keep remembering that not every moment is going to be like that, right? But that it doesn't mean that even when there are moments like COVID and not being able to shadow and not being able to do all those things that will propel you forward, it doesn't mean that all those all moments are gonna be like that either. You know, in other words, you're gonna have good moments and you're gonna have bad moments, but it's up to you to kind of pull from those good moments to get as many good moments going forward from from here on. Because I'm I'm telling you, you know, as an OB, I can tell you I loved, you know, delivering babies when I got to my rotation, to my OB rotation, something I never thought that would interest me. But when I did my first delivery, I was like, man, this is really cool. But you know the thing about being an OB is that OB is great. You know, you bring life into the world, but when there's tragedy on the labor and delivery floor, it's tragic. You know, it's really, really tragic. And you gotta stop and think about, you know, is this really what I want to do? You know, but when I think about all the tragedy that does happen on the labor and delivery floor, I also gotta think about all the joy that I get. Um, and it's okay to have, you know, to have joy um after tragedy. And so just remembering the good and bad and just, you know, holding on to that good, and hopefully that will help your motivation not slip away.
SPEAKER_06I for me, I keep it as simple as I applied to medical school twice. Um in between that time when I applied the first time and then I applied the second time was some difficult times for me. And looking back, it really was a chapter in this story of Need Darko. And that's the way I look at it, look at this is you got to look at yourself, your life almost like a book. And there's certain chapters that are already completed, right? So for you, that would be up until high school, up until college, and now there's a portion of or a chapter right now that's currently being written. How else is the rest of your life, the rest of your book, gonna be written? So for me, when I was struggling, man, I I don't know if you remember the TV show ER, but there was a TV show called ER that was on. Man, I stopped watching that show. Um around that time, that's when Gray's Anatomy started coming on. I refused to watch that um because I was embarrassed, right? Like I had told everybody up until that point that I was going to get into, well, I was gonna be a doctor. And now I'm struggling. I I, you know, I got rejected from all the schools. I didn't know what to do, and I had shame. Um, but somebody somebody sat me down and said, listen, like whether you take two years off, three years off, or maybe even four years off, the most important thing is that this is your story, and you can't compare yourself to somebody else, or you can't compare yourself, which is what I was doing, to other classmates or colleagues who were in medical school, and you know, you you end up either being jealous or you feel shameful that you haven't been able to get to that point, but they have. And um, that was a really interesting perspective. But once I was able to realize that this is really knee Darko story, and overall, when you look from a 30,000-foot view, this is literally just gonna be a small blip in my you know, in my story. Um, it really changed my perspective and really got me to focus back down to why I wanted to be a doctor. It also forced me to be a lot more um, I think, strategic with the schools that I applied to. It forced me to be more um mature about the answer of why do I want to be a doctor, right? Because I think I was I would always say that I wanted to help people. And it's like, well, you can help people in so many different ways. I was never challenged as to what does that mean to be a doctor? Why do you want to be a doctor? Um, so I would say for you is just remember that this is a book that's written on Jamar. There's a long ways to go, there's many more chapters to go. Comparing yourself to other people can be very dangerous. And you know, sometimes we go through potholes and detours, and it just makes for a better story. But the most important thing is to remember why you wanted to be a doctor. Remember that as your north star and go from there.
SPEAKER_02Like childish Gambino is his North Star.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Hey, I agree with that.
SPEAKER_06Have a proverbial cigarette. I'm not advocating cigarette smoking, everyone. I'm a doctor. The proverbial cigarette and just kind of move on, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh. Well, I have a question. I have a question for you, Jamar. Do you think you would make a pretty good doctor?
SPEAKER_05So, yes. Um, I'll put that out front. Yeah. Um, but there's often times where I'm just like, you know, is this is this me? Is this who I am? Um and part of it is, and a lot of people like I meet, like my manager here, uh, that's my job I have now, he knows I'm doing this. And he's really like, you know, he's like, yeah, go for it. I think you'll, you know, he always tells me. And so we have a nice little understanding about like if I have class or whatever like that. I get to work with them a lot, so we're cool. But um a lot of the a lot of the times when I'm like, I don't know if I can do it or if I should, is like there are other things that are going on that um I see and kind of like pull me towards like business opportunities, things like that, you know. Um and that was another question that I had for you guys, which is basically how did you do so if I'm going to like medical school, let's say next year, I mean, what do you stay away from? What do you um what's what do you feel like okay to like um jump into? Um there's like a lot of different opportunities. Like I work with my um nephew, he's a uh marketing agency. I'm I'm the director of IT operations. There's a lot that's going on there. Um but trying not to get too sucked in and pulled away from my dream. Um just trying to manage that. I'm like, you know, I could do this and and get going down, or I can hold off and and continue pursuing medical school and becoming a doctor. And a lot of times where I'm like, I don't know, this is me, um is due to that. But I wanted I wanted to do it. I know I want to do it. It's just I guess it's the timing. I'm I'm turning like 34 in two weeks.
SPEAKER_06I'm just like, yeah, we went to school, we went to school, we went to school with someone in their 50s. We went to actually multiple people in our school were in their late 40s to mid-50s. So you can do this. I would definitely say, listen, when you get back down to your why, this is where you're gonna have to have that come to Jesus proverbial meeting, that childish gambino meeting with yourself is what is it that you absolutely can't what is it that you absolutely can see yourself doing day in and day out? And if that has to do with medicine, if that has something to do with being a doctor, then I think that might be your calling. If you see yourself kind of handling multiple things, you know, being a doctor and doing something else, that's okay. But the most important thing is that if you choose that path to become a doctor, then you have to remember that this is, you know, a hundred percent in nothing else can conf can really pull you or distract you from that goal until you get that MD or DO degree. Once you get into the game, that's the thing I always tell everybody. Once you get into the game, right, which is graduating from medical school, and if you decide that you want to practice clinically finishing residency, then you can start to kind of juggle things in your life, like you know, doing multiple things, maybe being a doc outside the box. But you gotta remember, like we, there's one of uh, you know, we're part of a an organization called Tor for Diversity. And one of the things that they say is when you're in medical school, if you are what is it, if you are working in medical school, if you're working in medical school, then you're working your way out of medical school, which means that you should always be focused on getting through and graduating. Um, so that's what I would say is once you get in, just make sure you want to stay as focused as possible.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. And that makes sense. Being a doctor is kind of something that I can see more clearly than anything else. Um, you know, as much as I do other things, photography, and I can play music and all that stuff, but I can see further along being a doctor than I can and other things. But obviously, I don't have to get rid of, I don't have to stop being a photographer.
SPEAKER_06Um it's real, man. Because I tell you right now, like, you know, like I'm not gonna lie to you, like a lot of things, a lot of the things that I really like to do fell by the wayside. Like I I like running, like I like competitive running. I was just lazy. And but I look back, like if I continued running while I was in med school, I don't think that would actually change too much in how I would study. It just would have I would have to be a little bit more structured. Um, for someone like you, where you have things that you actually enjoy, they may be hobbies or what have you. That is all, if you put that all together, that makes Jamar, right? So photography, maybe some marketing here and there. The key thing is you can do all of that, just don't let it take you off of the main goal, which is graduating. But if you like don't do those whatsoever, that's also not you, also, right? So you just gotta be cognizant that it's it's a little bit of balance, um, but just also know that the most important thing, the main thing in your life, if this is what you want to do once you get in, is is medicine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, nothing happens in a bubble, right? Nothing happens in a bubble. So, you know. I also gave a talk, actually, at SNMA um this past weekend talking about, you know, creating your pre-med identity. And one of the things, you know, that was on this slide of a whole bunch of characteristics that people have about themselves is habits, hobbies, you know, faith, you know, race, ethnicity, like all these things that make up who we are, right? And so being a pre-med isn't just about grades and MCAT scores, right? You have to create an identity about yourself. Like, who are you? What value do you bring to the table? Because, you know, more than just GPA and MCAT scores, I'm gonna need you to do something else, right? I'm gonna need you to bring something else to the table because everybody brings their MCAT scores and GPA to the table, right? Yeah. And so nothing is happening in a bubble. Like all of these things, you know, that you like to do are happening despite the fact that you still want to go into medicine, right? So the desire to go into medicine has not caused you to put by the wayside everything else that you love to do. So is there a world where you could be in medical school and still maintain your, you know, your photography skills? Absolutely, there is, you know, but just like Nee said, you know, just make sure that you know that this investment of going into medical school is something that once you invest in it, you're gonna want some sort of return on your investment, right? At the very least, you're gonna want some sort of return on your investment, and that's going to mean you have to do the things that you need to do in order to complete that medical education so that eventually you can capitalize on getting that return on investment. So, and there's also a world where you finish everything that you want to do and you realize how you can put it all together to be very creative, you know, as he mentioned, being a doc outside the box, being just very creative. Maybe you can put everything together in a way that no one has ever put before. Um, and so that might be something that you kind of think about over the years as you're going through, you know, this journey. Whether you decide to apply to medical school now or you dec decide to apply to medical school five years from now, that ultimately is up to you and all of the things that are going on in your life. Um, but you know, if it's something that you absolutely want to do and you think you'll be good at it, which is a very important question, that's why I asked you, um, then yeah, by all means, I would say go for it. Because chances are you're not gonna pursue something that you don't think you're gonna be good at.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's very true. And I also know, you know, fourth years are even third year, they need headshots. So I got the camera.
SPEAKER_06There you go, camera ready. That's a little side business right there. I'm ready. That's it. Yeah. So let me let me ask you a question. How did you find out about Docs Outside the Box? How did you find us?
SPEAKER_05Oh, well, so I think it was so at the time when I told you I started all this, um, I was listening, I was trying to find some some different things because at first I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I don't think I'm smart enough. Um, all my stereo is testing and all that stuff was like mediocre. I did, you know, I did good in class and all that stuff. But I was looking for some podcasts and some inspiration and some testimonials and things like that. And I found um the pre-med years by Dr. Ryan Gray. I don't know if you ever listened to them, but yeah, it was some good stuff, yeah. He had a few other things up and then in that search, I also found your podcast um as well. And so I just added, I subscribed and added it, but I hadn't listened to it for a while out until um I can't even think of how long after I started listening to the pre-medic years. But then, you know, I was like, all right, let me give it a shot. I was looking at the title of the episode, like, all right. And then you I mean, and then I realized it wasn't just medicine, it wasn't just about being a doctor, and I was like, This is some good stuff. This is these are really things I can use even if I'm not in medical school or pursuing medicine. And so I just kept listening, and and usually now what I do is just kind of like I'll listen, I'll binge, I'll binge listen um in a week, and then I'll wait a couple weeks and I'll binge listen.
SPEAKER_02Dax outside the box and chill.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's how I thought Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Pretty much. All right, well, that that's really helpful because that helps us to understand how our listeners um you know consume the show and stuff. And um, this was dope, man. It was really it's been really great, you know, for us to kind of communicate with you through textual and for you to let us know what's going on and some of the ideas. Um, I still haven't decided if I'm gonna include your book in the 12 books that I have. No, I'm not saying I'm not gonna read it, I'm just saying for the 12 books. Maybe for next year, we'll see. Um we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. No, that's cool. Because I had uh I started um I got the audio book, uh Atomic Habits, because I was broadcast.
SPEAKER_06Bro, Atomic Habits is a great book.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's definitely great. So it's that, and then I have um the one I suggested, um, Indistractable, and then another one I'm listening to is Outlived. It just came out. And so it's pretty interesting. So it might be something you know later on you might want to include.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, okay. Cool, cool. Yeah, thanks. Hey Jamar, thank you very much. We appreciate you listening to the show. We also appreciate you now participating in the show. So listen, we can't wait for you to listen to future episodes. We're gonna change things up a little bit, make them a little bit um, we always change things up on the show, but we're looking to make the show a little bit easier to digest. So stay tuned for some upcoming uh changes that I think you'll really appreciate.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know I'll be around, I'll be listening.
SPEAKER_06All right, man. All right, man. We'll talk later, all right?
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_06All right, we are back. So that was a great segment. Yeah, I love having these type of conversations. Jamar, you are dope. Thank you so much for listening to the show for so long. I hope you all got an opportunity to hear, you know, from all the different types of uh people who listen to the show. We have pre-meds, we have medical students, we have um doctors, obviously, and we have people who are not even in the medical field who listen to the show also. So that was really fun to connect with him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it's always great to just kind of hear what people are doing, um, especially him as a non-traditional student. I think the reassurance that needs to um, the reassurance that non-traditional students need in order to understand that they bring a lot of value to the table because they are non-traditional is something that I think a lot of non-traditional students just don't get, right? Like they always are concerned about, well, no, because you know, I haven't been in school, or I had to, you know, take extra classes, or I had to, you know, I'm changing my career, and it's like, oh my gosh, like you bring so much to the table that a medical school is going to absolutely love you because you have a perspective that most people who are going into medical school don't have because they go straight from high school to college, right into medical school with, you know, very little, you know, experience outside of education, their own education. So this is um this was a great, great discussion that we had with them.
SPEAKER_06Jamar, you're dope, man, and um, you're gonna get to medical school. And I'm glad that you decide to roll with us. I'm glad we're, you know, we are people and stuff. You like what we talk about, and it obviously he is going to be a pre-med outside of the box, you know.
SPEAKER_02Pre-med outside the box.
SPEAKER_06That's what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_02Coming soon from Dr. Renee.
SPEAKER_06And he I extole that idea. He likes how we talk, you know. We like how he talks, and um, yo, you're gonna make it. So everybody, please make sure you text us below. Offer, please put below. You can always text us at 833-230-2860. We hope you guys enjoy this episode. Please also communicate with us on IG, and um, we're gonna catch you on the next episode.
SPEAKER_02Don't forget to watch Doctors for Hire on YouTube.
SPEAKER_06That's right. We'll catch you guys on the next one, y'all. Peace.
