Docs Outside The Box
Hosts Dr. Nii (Ghanaian) and Dr. Renee (Haitian) are first-generation physicians who paid off $662,000 in student loans in 3 years - while figuring out contracts, career moves, and money management that their colleagues learned at home.
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Docs Outside The Box
Student Loan Forgiveness Is PAUSED! What Happens Now? #469 Part 2
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When the "big beautiful bill" passed, all student loan forgiveness programs were paused. In this segment we went deep into the ripple effects these changes will create across healthcare. Whether you're a healthcare professional feeling betrayed by broken government promises or a taxpayer relieved about potential savings, share your perspective with us! Are you team "responsibility" or team "broken promises"? Which side are you on?
REE DOWNLOAD - 7 Considerations Before Starting Locum Tenens - https://darkos.lpages.co/7-considerations-before-locums
LINKS MENTIONED
npr article on what borrowers should know about student loan changes in the One Big Beautiful Bill - https://www.npr.org/2025/07/24/nx-s1-5477646/student-loan-repayment-forgiveness-trump
CBS NEWS on student loan forgiveness - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-forgiveness-ibr-debt-payments-education-department-cbs-news-explains/
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All right, guys. We just talked about the life and legacy of Malcolm Jamal Warner and how much he meant to us as a child star. Check that out in the last segment if you missed it. Now we're going to be talking about that big, beautiful bill and that student loan forgiveness is now paused.
Speaker 2So student loan forgiveness is paused. Pause, son pause. So I know you love to do.
Student Loan Forgiveness Paused
Speaker 2I told you so, guys, just so you know me and renee have a thing going where she's always right whatever knee so student loans are student loan forgiveness is paused, guys, and last week or a couple of weeks ago I don't know when this episode is coming out the big beautiful bill got passed. There's an article from CBS as well as a relic in the next couple of weeks. I don't even know if this website is going to be working. Npr oh shit. Npr ain't going to have no funding, so this might be the last time you see NPR, so make sure you check it out, but it's a problem. We got a problem.
Speaker 2So any most of the types of student loan forgiveness programs have been put on pause. Right now, we don'tV-E borrowers. That's the plan that capped payments at 5% of your income, right, and had forgiveness completely frozen. Well, excuse me, forgiveness has been completely frozen because of a court fight over the original debt relief push right. So this was what three or four years ago, when they wanted to, when Biden wanted to relieve all the debt, that stuff has been in limbo and now people who have been in that program and have been doing, you know, payments based off of 5% of their income pause. We don't know if you're going to still stay in that program.
Speaker 1So that's an income-based repayment system.
Speaker 2That's a little bit different than an income-based repayment system. Okay, income-based repayment borrowers right, you guys are stuck in limbo, right? So, basically, the forgiveness that you thought were coming. So, people who thought that I'm going to make my payments, I just got to follow this plan that they have based off of my income.
Speaker 1Right, so like PSLF.
Speaker 2Yeah, we don't know if PSLF is going to finish Right. Here's the problem, though. The problem with PSLF is, let's say, you are safe and PSLF continues. If your hospital does like gender affirming surgery, ok, or anything that the administration deems as a problem, they have the right to take that off of what your hospital could not be eligible.
Speaker 1For PSLF. Yes, even though it's a nonprofit. Yes.
Speaker 2Yes, yes, so I was. You know it's funny. The reason I bring this up is, you know this is a big thing but I actually was talking to. I met this doctor he's a GI doctor at my hospital and you know he wants to do locums, but he's like I got to wait a year because this is the last year of PSLF for me, oh God. And I was like, well, this is before this, right Before.
Speaker 1I knew about this, so I was like okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 2For me if you've done 10 years, so the reason why If you're in year nine you wait till year 10.
Speaker 2So the reason why some people may be like, hey, well, what do we like? Let's clarify it. You want to clarify for them or you want me to do it? No, you do it.
PSLF Program in Jeopardy
Speaker 2So the reason why folks would not do locums if they're in PSLF is in PSLF you have to be working at a nonprofit hospital, like you have to be employed at a nonprofit hospital when you're working as a locum tenens doctor, as an independent contractor, you ain't got no job, you're not employed. You're making money, you're working as a whatever it may be specialty, but you're not employed. So you're not going to fulfill that part of PSLF. So a lot of folks who are just like, yeah, I love this, like I'm going to get my loans paid off, but I just want to work as a locums, they're going to be like, yeah, no, let me finish this. So that's what he was saying.
Speaker 2Right, I want to get through my 10 years 120 payments, no missed payments. Once I'm done with that and I get all of my student loans forgiven, oh my God. So people like him, screwed. What do you do, right, do you? Because you know you're talking about 10 payments, excuse me, you're talking about 120 payments at, usually like a minimum Right and then the rest of it will be forgiven Right.
Speaker 1It doesn't mean that like so you didn't put as much of a dent in your loans over the last 10 years as you could have if you had been paying kind of the real minimum payment.
Speaker 2And then the one big beautiful bill. It phases out, it saves, it's. It phases out the save plan, the paye plan. Um, I see, I ain't going into all that. You guys got to look at all. We're a podcast and stuff, right? Um, all that stuff is being phased out by 2028, all right, and it's going to be replaced by a 30 year repayment plan that takes a lifetime to finish.
Speaker 1Wait what.
Speaker 2Yep, Every plan is all. Those plans are gone by 2028.
Speaker 1No, no, no, Say the second part. Replaced by what?
Speaker 2It's going to be replaced by a single 30 year repayment plan.
Speaker 1So it's going back to what it was before.
30-Year Repayment Plan Coming
Speaker 2No, so it's going back to what it was before no it's so. It's going to the default, right, right, but there was all these different plans to help you, right, all of those other things are gone, right so so no income-based repayment no, it's going to be gone by 2028, no PSLF potentially. Might be out no save.
Speaker 1Might be out. No pay Yep. So essentially it's like You're on your own. Right.
Speaker 2You're on your own. So I think so there's two ways. There's two ways to look at this.
Speaker 1Oh, wait and also question. This also includes that the plus loans are gone as well.
Speaker 2Oh, I don't know, the plus loans gone. I'm asking oh, I don't know, I didn't look that up Someone. If someone knows, let us know yo.
Speaker 1Yeah, because I saw something about the plus loans being gone also, like parent plus for graduate being gone. All I gotta say is let us know if you.
Speaker 2But that's what. That's what I thought I was thinking about. Being a doctor if you're thinking about going into medical professor, you better not let your parents put nothing in your name. Don't let your brother or your sister put that car in your name. Don't let them start that cell phone play. Listen, you need your credit. Private loans they private loan lenders.
Speaker 2They're like happy, right now, yeah right they are, they gonna be predators so I look at it, so I was thinking about and I wrote this down. I was like, on one side, you're gonna have people, because this is what people were saying, you have some people are like finally, my taxes are not going to go and subsidize someone else's student loans. Right, you have people on one side.
Speaker 1But when you need a doctor and there's not one available, don't just don't be mad about it.
Speaker 2On the other end you told a bunch of teachers, doctors, lawyers.
Speaker 1Not to be coming, Not to become those things.
Speaker 2No, no, no no, Right now you have them already in a plan that says if you play by these rules, right, this is a government thing. If you play by these rules, we will forgive the rest, If you work at a nonprofit hospital which is beneficial for the community if you make payments and don't miss a payment, right, then we. So basically, what we're saying now is yeah, you can't trust the government, you can't trust the government.
Speaker 1Well, what you're saying is now you can't trust the government. You can't rely on the government right. You can't rely on the government right Because governments make laws. They change laws, so you can never trust that whatever is the law today is going to be the law tomorrow. What you can't do is rely on the government right, because the government can change its laws at any particular point in time.
Speaker 2I think there should be some type of retroactive type thing where you get grandfathered in and so forth. Not getting into specifics of all that, but I do believe that there should be something that's grandfathered in, but hey, you know.
Speaker 1I mean, even if there isn't whether there is or isn't a grandfather clause, right, the reality is going forward this is still going to rear its ugly head in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1Going to rear its ugly head in some way, shape or form. So if taxpayers who are not in, you know, in these professions are like thankfully, our you know, our taxes aren't going to student loans and X, y and Z and blah, blah, blah, it's like that's fine. But and you and I know because we work in rural communities, you and I know we work in rural communities. So when you come into the hospital and when you're at an urban center now right, let's fast forward, maybe 50 years from now, if this keeps up and now you're at an urban center and they're like, oh yeah, there's no doctor here that can do that for you, when the tertiary care hospital now is no longer a tertiary care hospital because they don't have enough doctors, they don't have enough resources to do the things that need to be done, don't talk. Well, I live in New York City. How is this possible? Go back to your laws and regulations and you will see how that is possible. That's all.
Speaker 1Just don't complain. The public just cannot complain about these things. You and I know in rural communities people be complaining like crazy. I'm like you did it to yourself. You did it to yourself.
Speaker 2Well, I think that in some way, some form of like they be complaining. You know they do. If you don't invest, if you don't, as a society, invest in the education of the people in your society Right, whether it's education, whether it's health care like you will start to see major issues 20 years, actually 10 years, 20 years down the line.
Speaker 1Certainly 50.
Healthcare Shortage Implications
Speaker 2So basically, if you make it really difficult to become a doctor, if you make it very difficult to be in whatever health care professional may be, it makes it really hard for folks to come, particularly to areas that don't pay as much or areas that are not very um advantageous to be at. You make people become very strategic, right? So if you have a doc, so for the folks who are listening right now, whose doc, whose parents are just going to write out a check, they're like whatever, this doesn't change anything for me right but you know, if you are well and if you're just saying, look, I need to recoup my money, so I'm going to go into a specialty, right?
Speaker 2Or I'm going to go into a non-primary care field and I'm going into the city, or I'm going into concierge medicine, or I'm going to do tick tocks, which I went back and I listened to the. I went back and listened to the game tape about what I was saying and I'm going to talk about it later on the show. But I need to revise what I'm saying. But this is part of it, right? Like if you're making more money on TikTok, if you're making more money dancing than actually operating, eventually you're going to be like the jig is up. Why am I?
Speaker 1putting in all this time Right, if you find more innovative ways in order to become, you know, lucrative, right in your income, then you're going to do that. And the reality is this look as many rich people as there are out there. Ain't all they, not all becoming doctors. I mean, let's just. But I think one thing, let's just put that out there.
Speaker 2So one thing that drives me nuts, though, about this is, like you know, in this bill and just in general, like I don't understand why average people side with billionaires and businesses that are billionaire in quality, right, so like they're okay, wall street getting a bailout, right, but everybody else, anybody personally, it has to be personal responsibility no, they're not okay with wall street getting a bailout even though, like the personal responsibility part, the person that's actually going to affect your community way more than a Wall Street bailout, they're not okay.
Speaker 2It just drives me nuts.
Speaker 1But they're not okay with Wall Street getting a bailout. If you ask them right, they're not okay with Wall Street getting a bailout. The problem is, wall Street is so big it's like well, who are you fighting?
Speaker 2Like you know, there's no individual person Right.
Speaker 1There's no Exactly Like who are you looking at Right, whereas doctors although you know doctors make up a huge group. But you can see a doctor, you interact with doctors, you know you can touch them, you can smell them, right Like you can see doctors and you can have an opinion on that because you feel like you're just closer to it, right. And so they're not okay with anybody getting a bailout except for themselves. They want the bailout, everybody wants the bailout, and I don't blame everybody for wanting the bailout.
Speaker 1But the reality is that you, you know, you've got to realize at some point that certain things, certain decisions are going to impact you in a certain way. And that's all right. It's not to say, oh, you should agree that doctors should get a bailout or you should agree that Wall Street should get a bailout. I don't care whether or not you agree with that. I'm just saying understand what the consequences are and don't complain later on because you've been affected. It's, it's the whole. Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. And the reality that the reality is right now, the way that this thing is going, is that in? In my vision, if this continues in this way, where only you know people who can write out a check can actually get into the profession of medicine one, you're going to have a lot of medical schools closing, that's number one.
Speaker 1Because all these rich people that can write a check, I mean you don't have that many people whose kids want to become doctors, so a lot of medical schools are going to be closing, which, too, means that you're going to have even further more of a physician shortage, right? Which three basically means that you're probably moving in the direction of a developing country, which I've always said, that this country would love to be a developing country in some aspects, and I think that that's where you're headed.
Speaker 2So picture this y'all. So this means when you graduate from college, you're going to get a coupon book that says your student loans start at the age of 22, 23. And that coupon book is basically going to say you ain't done till you 54.
Speaker 1You know that's crazy. That's the time.
Speaker 2That's the time when you're supposed to be saving up for your kids tuition. That's the time when you're supposed to be saving up for your kid's tuition. That's the time when you're supposed to be saving up for your retirement. So, in essence, you're going to be having more people reliant on if it's even going to be out problem. So I think a lot of people right now are in limbo, particularly people who were using these federal financial repayment plans as part of like either their ability to invest, their ability to plan for the future, even what kind of job that they're looking at. The other thing, too, that we haven't talked about we may have to say this for another episode is the insurers for under Obamacare have all put out that insurance premiums are going to go through the roof starting January 1st. So it's just all I got to say is this y'all, it's a different world, a lot of stuff's going to change.
Speaker 1A lot of stuff's going to change. A lot of stuff is going to change. So if you were, if you were me back in when you graduate, 1990 or 2000,. You graduated from college and this is what you have ahead of you. What would you do.
Speaker 2I wouldn't do anything differently. I'll tell you why. Because if we follow, if I follow the path that I just followed right, which is, guys, we didn't do any income based repayment, we just paid off all of our debt. So I just want everybody to know, like when you graduate, like now, at least if you graduate now, the income that you make being a physician you're going to be able to pay off your student loans.
Speaker 1OK.
Being Strategic About Medical Education
Speaker 2I don't know how long it's going to take you, but you're going to be able to pay off your student loans and live comfortably at the same time. That's my opinion. I don't care what anybody has to say. You're going to be comfortable, Right? The question is is how are you going to get there? Are you going to get there? Well, basically, now you're, you're more than likely going to have to get there, where you're going to have to pay off your entire student loan debt. Right, we did Excuse me, that's what we did. The majority of students who are paying off their student loans right now are not doing that. They're doing it off of some type of PSLF or income based. So for me right now, yeah, I just be like yeah, I want to get into med school, I want to be a doctor, I'm going to pay off my loans because I didn't think of any other way to get through it right now.
Speaker 2Right. But also, at the same time, what I would be more concerned about is do I have enough credit to get through? That's where I'd be nervous, right. So this boils down to guys. You can go back several, several, I don't know how many episodes where we talked about when I put out maximum for my student loans. Like I don't know about y'all, but I took out maximum student loans every year in med school because I just didn't want to ask my parents for any money. I just wanted to make sure that you know that I had enough. And I'll tell you we did not live luxurious at all. I didn't live luxurious. No, I don't know about you, your rent was more than mine, but I ain't live luxurious 150 or 125 dollars more than you was living in the plaza right living no dag on plaza all right, so I took out.
Speaker 1Why do you always have to lie about something? This is what I don't understand. People, please write in and write in to me.
Speaker 2Don't talk to my audience.
Speaker 1Write in to me and let him know that his truth is enough. His truth is enough, does not have to, you know, make up stories, you know, and just exaggerate things. For you guys to appreciate him.
Speaker 2Write him because I feel like should I look at the screen and say so, tell me, what should I say? I feel like, no, you don't need to say anything because I'm saying it for you my name is Dr Nidarko and I'm enough, I'm fine and gosh darn it.
Speaker 1people like me because I'm good enough. I'm smart enough and gosh darn it people like me. Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and doggone it, people like me. Yeah, that that please write into him and let him know.
Speaker 2All right, so listen guys. So I took even though I lived like I lived, we lived. The house that we, that I lived in was the apartment that I have was not expensive, but my apartment was what? Three hundred dollars, three hundred dollars a month right, renee's was what.
Speaker 1425 425.
Speaker 2Which weird.
Speaker 1I had the washing machine and dryer, you didn't and, but I had an independent house, yeah, with the garage yeah, yeah, yeah, but I took out the maximum amount for said reasons.
Speaker 2You got to be really careful now you starting from going into your pre-med years in college, y'all. You got to be real strategic. You got to make sure you're looking for scholarships. You got to make sure that you are very smart about this, because not only the student loan repayment issue that's an issue, but there's caps on how much you can take out. That's the problem. So the Senate, they changed the bill a little bit and they increased how much you can take out as a med student.
Speaker 1Do we know how much that is?
Speaker 2I think it's like 50 grand. So if you're in med school, law school and I forget what other profession you can take out more than somebody else who's like, for example, let's say you had someone who wants to take student loans out for a master's degree and then you compare that to someone who wants to take student loans out for a professional degree okay their maximum is like 50k.
Speaker 2Okay, the master's I forget what it's like, but it's. It's a difference. But if you blew your load all in college, you're screwed. You're going to be screwed.
Speaker 1I go to them city colleges and them state colleges, but even then, yeah, them city colleges, they're still, they're still like.
Speaker 2And in New York they think they slick New York. We know what you're doing. So New York will basically say was it free tuition for everybody? What do you mean? Remember New York, the New York SUNY schools. They say free tuition for everybody.
Speaker 1No, no, suny is state.
Speaker 2I know.
Speaker 1CUNY is city.
Speaker 2Okay, but for SUNY right. Okay, remember, kimmy went to like basically they had a plan?
Speaker 1No, no, it wasn't free tuition, it was free housing or something like that.
Speaker 2No, it was free tuition, but you had to pay for housing. Oh was it.
Speaker 1Yeah, tuition, but you had to pay for housing. Oh was it. Yeah, it was something crazy, but the housing is like, oh you might.
Speaker 2The housing is mad expensive. It's like 20k, right. So I was like, how am I saving money? Yeah, you might be right. So all I'm just saying is everybody, you got to be real strategic. Nowadays the jig is up. You're gonna have to be strategic. Which uh college you look at, you know gap years now guys, gap years, post-bac programs, because all that stuff counts. Right, let's start diying. All that stuff counts, so it's just it. There's a lot of stuff that's going to change in the next several years. Yeah, it's going to change, it's going to be very.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's going to be much more difficult, um for students trying to get into medical school, trying to get through medical school as well.
Speaker 2I want to hear from people Seriously, I got, I got here. I really I want to know I want to know if you're, if you are a resident right now, if you are an attending right now and you are on this PS, ps LF system right now and you upset Yo, you can leave us a voicemail right in.
Speaker 1You can leave us a voicemail.
Speaker 2Write in Shout. You can leave us a voicemail. You can even send us a text because I want to read it.
Speaker 1I want to read it on the next show. You can use expletives too, if you'd like.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, I'm really interested in that. You know you want to anonymize yourself you can, if you want to hear from them too.
Speaker 1You the people on the other side who are like I ain't, I want my taxes to pay off these mugs.
Speaker 2What do you call it?
Speaker 1uh, student loans, I want to hear from everybody, so we'll hear from everybody if you are in support of this, write us in, send us a voicemail.
Speaker 2If you're not in support of this and you feel betrayed, if you feel like you got, you know whatever, let us know.
Speaker 1I want to hear from the potential potential medical students. Actually medical students and and potential medical students, those who are like applying this year or got their acceptances and are just waiting to start school yeah, team responsibility versus team broken, broken promises.
Speaker 2That's what I got yeah which side are you on? Yeah, man, that's, it's a lot. It's a lot, all right, actually. So I do have a question for you as somebody who has been involved in a federal student loan program in many different ways. Right, what do you mean? You've taken out loans in college, right? Okay, you took out federal loans in med school, right?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2So you're part of the federal student loan program oh, okay. Right, whether it's subsidized or unsubsidized. Okay, so you've benefited from that.
Team Responsibility vs. Team Broken Promises
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2In some form or fashion.
Speaker 1right, yes, but you paid off your, your student loans the traditional way, if not an accelerated traditional way? Yes, are you split any way about this? I think that people should have the option of either paying the way we did traditionally, and I think the government should help to subsidize. I think that that option should exist.
Speaker 2You mean, there should be forgiveness?
Speaker 1Yeah, there should be forgiveness. There should be loan forgiveness. Just because I, just because I, you know, didn't benefit from something, doesn't mean that somebody else shouldn't benefit from it. Right? Like I can't stand people who live in society like, well, I didn't get it, so why does everybody else get it? I'm like that is such a selfish way to go about living. Right, because there's always going to be. There's always going to be, whether it's student loans, whether it's, you know, somebody want a new car, whether it's, you know, whatever it is, there is always going to be someone who benefits from something that you didn't benefit from. Shoot, the person in front of you can have a coupon that you didn't have for the same damn product that you have at the supermarket. Now, all of a sudden, this person should pay full price, like, for me, this just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2Like, how do?
Speaker 1you live in a society with that kind of thought process.
Speaker 2So what do you think is going to? I think the worst one will be not the PSLF, not the income based repayment. The issue will be the caps on how much student loans you can take out. I think that's going to be the bigger issue because I think that's going to turn people off more. That basically is, if you want to talk about gatekeeping, that is as obvious and you won't be able to even get as gatekeeping as you can get with that.
Speaker 2So that, for me, is the bigger issue. Um, I think for doctors in particular, you're going to be able to pay off your student loans, however it can be. It's going to be more of a problem for those because you remember, like two years ago, three years ago, we were at aoa and there was a student who was graduating with 400 400 000 student loan debt. That's crazy.
Speaker 1That's crazy. So, yeah, I don't know. But yeah, I think the caps are going to be much more of a problem, because that's going to be the thing that determines whether or not you can even get through the door. So you'll have an acceptance in your hand and then they'll say, hey, pay this tuition. And you'll be like I can't, and if that's it Right. So you know, yeah, I agree with you that that's going to be more of a problem. But, going into the next segment, let's talk about kind of what you discussed, and that is that as a doctor, you might be able to make more on TikTok than you would being able to work as a doctor. We kind of talked about that in a previous episode. We're going to revisit that again in the next segment. So stay tuned.
